Harbor freight trailer tongue extension

Trailer Update - I just finished extending the tongue on this trailer by about 20 inches.Actually, it is 19 3/4" longer. This just happens to be the exact length needed in order to use one set of bolt holes in the original tongue, meaning you only need to drill two holes in the extension, and just in case of weld failure, you are using the original holes in the …

I bought a small trailer from harbor freight to convert it to carry my two kayaks. the tongue of the trailer is a little short, i would like to extend it. do any one know where can i get a long beam for that? i check on some tongue extension on line but it cost too much. I am looking for a cheap way yo do it. thanks. tpenfield. Moderator.Feb 21, 2019 · Extenders are available from Harbor Freight and others. The extender slides into the hitch and the ball slides into the extender. It's not meant to be a permanent solution and I wouldn't tow more than five or ten miles with one but, it's easy to install at or near the ramp and provides a couple of extra feet of tongue length to facilitate launching. I'm interested in modding a Harbor Frieght 1090 Lb. Capacity Utility Trailer, 40-1/2" x 48" to haul kayaks. I've seen many examples on Kayak Angler of extending the tongue but no details on where one would find the square tubing, estimated cost, and attaching it to the trailer. I have no welding/torch equipment.Don't get scammed by emails or websites pretending to be Harbor Freight. Learn More For any difficulty using this site with a screen reader or because of a disability, please contact us at 1-800-444-3353 or [email protected] .I bought a small trailer from harbor freight to convert it to carry my two kayaks. the tongue of the trailer is a little short, i would like to extend it. do any one know where can i get a long beam for that? i check on some tongue extension on line but it cost too much. I am looking for a cheap way yo do it. thanks. tpenfield. Moderator. trailer tongue. 2. Place the Tool Box on the trailer tongue (not supplied) with the wider part near the trailer. 3. From the Hardware Pack (6) select a “U” bolt and insert it through one of the rectangular support plates. Insert the legs of the “U” bolt through the holes in the bottom of the Tool Box to align with the supports on your ... Mar 11, 2011 ... Tongue extension/frame reinforcement: Page 62, 83, 84, 86, 87, 88, 90, 105, 112, 118. Trailer tongue (cooler) tray: Page 68, 70, 104, 112. Mud ...

STANDARD FIT. This receiver hitch extension bar has a 2-inch x 2-inch shank to fit any industry-standard 2-inch trailer hitch receiver ; SOLID STRENGTH. This 2-inch receiver hitch extension is constructed from high-strength steel to ensure reliable towing for the road ahead. It is rated for 3,500 lbs. gross trailer weight and 350 lbs. tongue weightThis harbor scene features a trio of boats, docked seaside, on a beautiful day. Check out this article to learn to draw this landscape in five steps. Advertisement ­If you love lif...Roadmaster Anti-Rattle Hitch Extender for Tow Bars - 2" Hitches - 7-3/4" Extension. Retail: $158.59. Our Price: $146.67. (138) Add to Cart. Designed for use with tow bars, this hitch extender moves your 2" receiver opening 7-3/4" out from your trailer hitch to provide clearance for rear-mounted accessories.Four-Way Trailer Wiring Connection Kit, 25 ft. Shop All KENWAY. $1499. Compare to. REESE TOWPOWER 7463611 at. $ 18.98. Save 21%. This 25 ft. color coded 14 gauge is the complete wiring harness needed to wire any trailers stop, turn and running lights. Read More.New Tools. Inside Track Club members can buy the HAUL-MASTER 2-3/4 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box (Item 62253) for $99.99, valid through April 29, 2021.Compare our price of $99.99 to LUND at $204.97 (model number: 76220). Save $104 by shopping at Harbor Freight.This trailer box is constructed of durable sheet steel and has a weatherproof seal….

18. 2.2K views 3 years ago. Harbor Freight Trailer Tongue Extension Modification Part 2. Wiring, added support x-members, fender bracket and license plate hinge. ...more.Extend your trailer hitch receiver opening to clear your spare tire when using your hitch-mounted bike rack. Prevents your trailer from hitting a rear-mounted propane tank when making sharp turns. Hitch pin and clip or hitch lock are sold separately. 1-800-940-8924 to order etrailer hitch adapters part number e48YR or order online at etrailer.com. Free …May 2, 2023 · In this video I give a full walk through of the Harbor Freight 40x48 utility trailer that I converted to a kayak trailer. On this build I only did a few mod... The trailer tongue box has a cam lock and key mechanism for security. The HAUL-MASTER 2.31 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box (Item 61602 / 64795 / 66244) has a 4.5-star rating on HarborFreight.com . Save on Harbor Freight’s customer favorites with our May 2020 coupon book , valid through June 30, 2020.78. 12K views 3 years ago. Extended the tongue 12 inches using 2 x2 x 1/8 square tubing. Trailer follows the car better, less bounce movement on ball hitch and easier to back up. The...Harbor Freight Tools is a popular brand among DIY enthusiasts and professional mechanics alike. Their affordable prices and high-quality products have made them a go-to option for ...

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Constructed of sturdy welded steel, this trailer tire carrier is durable enough to fit four- and five-lug trailer wheels while resting easy on its zinc-plated mount. A great trailer tire accessory for any utility or boat trailer! Easy to install, mounts your spare tire in a convenient location; Fits all trailer tongues to 3 in. wide This trailer dolly has an extra-long handle to give you the leverage you need to manually move small trailers easily. This trailer dolly helps you safely move a lightweight trailer (under 600 lb.) over short distances, and helps maneuver trailers in tight spaces. Super-strong tubular construction; Large 10 in. pneumatic tires; 1-7/8 in. ball hitchThis A frame trailer coupler installs easily and supports up to 10,000 lb. of cargo with a tongue weight of 1500 lb. The Class IV trailer coupler fits our 50 in. A frame trailers and couples with a 2-5/16 in. diameter ball hitch. Features include a spring loaded collar with lock and pin. Max. load capacity of 10,000 lb. and tongue weight of ...Harbor Freight Tools is America’s leading retailer of quality tools at the lowest prices. We have 1500+ Harbor Freight Stores across the USA. To help you find a Harbor Freight store near you, visit our Store Locator page. Harbor Freight Tools locations are open 7 days a week, Mondays through Saturdays from 8 am to 8 pm and on Sundays from 9 ...Yes, you should: The ancient practice of tongue-scraping can reduce bad breath and improve oral health. You may floss, brush morning and night, get twice-yearly cleanings, and use ...

I wrote a review of the trailer in these pages. Since that time, I've finished the boat and modified the trailer to fit. The first thing I had to do was to extend the tongue. As it comes this trailer is 8 feet on the deck with a short yoke on the front ending with a hitch. The boat itself is 14 feet, so more would have to be added on. Roadmaster Anti-Rattle Hitch Extender for Tow Bars - 2" Hitches - 7-3/4" Extension. Retail: $158.59. Our Price: $146.67. (138) Add to Cart. Designed for use with tow bars, this hitch extender moves your 2" receiver opening 7-3/4" out from your trailer hitch to provide clearance for rear-mounted accessories. The bolt-on bracket fits most trailer frames and provides easy swing-back action to move the jack out of the way when the trailer is hitched. Large 6 in. wheel for easier trailer repositioning; Zinc-plated steel construction is corrosion resistant; Convenient side wind handle; Bracket mount easily bolts to trailer tongue; 12-3/4 in. to 22-3/4 ... Get our best deals and latest news delivered straight to you. Subscribe. No Hassle Return Policy. 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed. Harbor Freight buys their top quality tools from the same factories that supply our competitors. We cut out the middleman and pass the savings to you! Owners: Dave & Lynne Precord. Phone: 262-397-6543 Based in Hartford Wisconsin Email: p [email protected] Like us on FacebookTrailer Jack Swivel Wheel. Shop All HAUL-MASTER. +5 More. $1999. Compare to. ULTRA-TOW 44084 at. $ 27.99. Save 29%. Trailer jack landing plate fits any 2 in. round tube trailer jack Read More.HAUL-MASTER 10 -000 lb. Capacity Weight-Distributing Hitch – Item 67649 / 61720. Compare our price of $219.99 to CURT at $279.94 (model number: 17052). Save $39.95 by shopping at Harbor Freight.Save Even More with the Harbor Freight Credit Card. Harbor Freight is America's go-to store for low prices on power tools, generators, jacks, tool boxes and more. Shop our 1400+ locations nationwide. HAUL-MASTER 2-3/4 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box – Item 62253 / 60302 / 64796 / 65439. Compare our price of $149.99 to LUND at $250.36 (model number: 76220). Save $80.37 by shopping at Harbor Freight. HAUL-MASTER 10 -000 lb. Capacity Weight-Distributing Hitch – Item 67649 / 61720. Compare our price of $219.99 to CURT at $279.94 (model number: 17052). Save $39.95 by shopping at Harbor Freight.Feb 24, 2024 ... The jack is a back saver, especially when lifting a fully loaded trailer off the hitch of my vehicle. Here you can see the two 4' end pieces cut ...PRODUCT OVERVIEWAttach this handy hitch extender to your vehicle's hitch to get an overall hitch length of 16 in. with a 7 in. wide x 14 in. long. The hitch ...

Apr 4, 2021 · “I get a commission every time you purchase a product through my Amazon affiliate links below.” Similar box on Amazon with same dimensions - https://amzn.to/...

The average is 2"x 3" x 1/8" wall for boat trailers, use that and it’ll be plenty strong enough. Doesn’t need to be welded, bolted is fine, do use grade 5 bolts and nylock nuts so it can’t loosen. Bill H. pirateoverforty January 21, 2015, 10:24pm #8. Without a truck but the 1125 trailer.Even if we don’t stock replacement parts in our warehouse, we can special order parts for many brands. Call a Harbor Freight Parts Specialist at 1-800-444-3353 for more details. 6.The first measurement to take is on your receiver hitch. The inside dimensions of the tube need to match the shank size of the extender. Receivers are typically only available in one of three standard sizes: 1-1/4” x 1-1/4”, 2” x 2” or 2-1/2” x 2-1/2”. Some larger trucks today come with a 3” x 3”, but this is fairly uncommon.Reply. DoctorCAD. • 3 yr. ago. That looks exactly like mine, but I have a deck on mine for hauling stuff other than my kayak. It works great and the extended tounge makes it easier to back up. Also, I couldn't even see the trailer behind my Kia Niro until I extended the tongue. Backing up using "the force" was extremely difficult. 2. Reply.Harbor Freight ToolsGeographic tongue is characterized by irregular patches on the surface of the tongue. This gives it a map-like appearance. Geographic tongue is characterized by irregular patches o... Constructed of sturdy welded steel, this trailer tire carrier is durable enough to fit four- and five-lug trailer wheels while resting easy on its zinc-plated mount. A great trailer tire accessory for any utility or boat trailer! Easy to install, mounts your spare tire in a convenient location; Fits all trailer tongues to 3 in. wide This A frame trailer coupler installs easily and supports up to 5000 lb. of cargo with a tongue weight of 700 lb. The Class lll trailer coupler fits our 50 in. ... 605667). Save 33% by shopping at Harbor Freight. Shop Now for Item 66951. HAUL-MASTER 2 in. A-Frame Trailer Coupler - Item 66951. Shop by Department. Automotive. Generators & Engines ...

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The link mentioned earlier, Building a stronger 4'x4' frame out of a 4'x8' Harbor Freight frame, shows how to reconfigure the extra pieces from a HF frame kit into a frame backbone / tongue when doing a 4' long deck. ** Update 09/10/19 ** Harbor Freight has made a change to the #62747 frames that affect how to add a 2"x2" square tube backbone.I wrote a review of the trailer in these pages. Since that time, I've finished the boat and modified the trailer to fit. The first thing I had to do was to extend the tongue. As it comes this trailer is 8 feet on the deck with a … 2 in. Ball Hitch. $1699. Add to Cart. Add to List. HAUL-MASTER. 2 in. A-Frame Trailer Coupler. $2699. Add to Cart. Harbor Freight buys their top quality tools from the same factories that supply our competitors. We cut out the middleman and pass the savings to you! My Account. ... Clevis Trailer Pin Mount. Clevis Trailer Pin Mount $ 26 99. Add to Cart Add to List. HAUL-MASTER. 2 in. to 1-1/4 in. Hitch Adapter. 2 in. to 1-1/4 in. Hitch Adapter $ 14 99.Shop by Department. Buy the HAUL-MASTER 2000 Lbs. Swing-Back Weld-On Trailer Jack (Item 42950) for $19.99, valid through January 28, 2021.Compare our price of $19.99 to Trailer Jack at $68.94 (model number: BD151443). Save 71% by shopping at Harbor Freight.This trailer jack is great for stabilizing and leveling travel trailers.As of 2014, Harbor Freight Tools does not offer franchises. The company owns all of its stores and operates a real estate department that assesses potential locations for future st...Tongue Capacity (lb.) 4000 lb. Accessories Included Sway control kit, mounting reinforcement plate, hitch-mounted ball, shank with machine hex nut and split lock washer, trailer tongue ball plate Material Carbon Steel Product Height 1-1/8 in. Product Length 20 in. Product Weight 14.55 lb. Product Width 2-1/2 in. Shipping Weight 15.40 lb.The trailer tongue box has a cam lock and key mechanism for security. The HAUL-MASTER 2.31 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box (Item 61602 / 64795 / 66244) has a 4.5-star rating on HarborFreight.com . Save on Harbor Freight’s customer favorites with our May 2020 coupon book , valid through June 30, 2020. ….

2 in. Ball Hitch. $1699. Add to Cart. Add to List. HAUL-MASTER. 2 in. A-Frame Trailer Coupler. $2699. Add to Cart. The wheels swivel 360° for easy maneuvering of loads up to 1500 lb. This easy-to-operate trailer jack also eliminates the hassle of removing the jack, just fold it back and away. Double-wheel design for easier trailer repositioning; Zinc-plated steel construction is corrosion resistant; Bracket mount easily bolts to trailer tongue18. 2.2K views 3 years ago. Harbor Freight Trailer Tongue Extension Modification Part 2. Wiring, added support x-members, fender bracket and license plate hinge. ...more.The DIY trailer tongue weight scale at Harbor Freight helps accurately measure tongue weight. It is a convenient tool for safe towing. When it comes to ensuring your trailer is properly balanced for safe towing, knowing the tongue weight is crucial. Harbor Freight offers a user-friendly DIY trailer tongue weight scale that provides accurate ... 2-3/4 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box. Easily install to your trailer tongue or truck bed to store tools and tie downs in this durable, weather resistant trailer box. Read More. This trailer dolly has an extra-long handle to give you the leverage you need to manually move small trailers easily. This trailer dolly helps you safely move a lightweight trailer (under 600 lb.) over short distances, and helps maneuver trailers in tight spaces. Super-strong tubular construction; Large 10 in. pneumatic tires; 1-7/8 in. ball hitchHarbor Freight buys their top quality tools from the same factories that supply our competitors. We cut out the middleman and pass the savings to you! My Account. ... Clevis Trailer Pin Mount. Clevis Trailer Pin Mount $ 26 99. Add to Cart Add to List. HAUL-MASTER. 2 in. to 1-1/4 in. Hitch Adapter. 2 in. to 1-1/4 in. Hitch Adapter $ 14 99.1-1/4 in. to 2 in. Hitch Adapter. Shop All HAUL-MASTER. $1799. Compare to. ULTRA-TOW 32823 at. $ 42.99. Save 58%. Trailer hitch adapter allows a 1-1/4 in. hitch opening to accept a 2 in. insert Read More. Add to Cart. Harbor freight trailer tongue extension, Shop by Department. Buy the HAUL-MASTER 2000 Lbs. Swing-Back Weld-On Trailer Jack (Item 42950) for $19.99, valid through January 28, 2021.Compare our price of $19.99 to Trailer Jack at $68.94 (model number: BD151443). Save 71% by shopping at Harbor Freight.This trailer jack is great for stabilizing and leveling travel trailers., Tongue Capacity (lb.) 4000 lb. Accessories Included Sway control kit, mounting reinforcement plate, hitch-mounted ball, shank with machine hex nut and split lock washer, trailer tongue ball plate Material Carbon Steel Product Height 1-1/8 in. Product Length 20 in. Product Weight 14.55 lb. Product Width 2-1/2 in. Shipping Weight 15.40 lb., To launch, simply back the trailer to the head of the ramp at a level point, aligned so that you will go straight back. Chock the trailer's wheels and uncouple it from your hitch, pull forward and slip the extension bar in place, pin it, and hitch the extended coupler to your vehicle and back it in. Ultimately this is a much more controlled ..., Roadmaster Anti-Rattle Hitch Extender for Tow Bars - 2" Hitches - 7-3/4" Extension. Retail: $158.59. Our Price: $146.67. (138) Add to Cart. Designed for use with tow bars, this hitch extender moves your 2" receiver opening 7-3/4" out from your trailer hitch to provide clearance for rear-mounted accessories., Zinc-plated steel construction is corrosion-resistant. Convenient side wind handle. The bracket mount easily bolts to the trailer tongue. 12-3/4 in. to 22-3/4 in. lift range. Check out this product to learn more. Raise or lower trailers with a trailer jack from Harbor Freight. Smooth and easy to operate. Up to 10,000 lb. lift capacity., Folding only the back half of trailer when storing. Part 3 of 3 vids relating to tongue extension.Part 1 video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMioWjtl088 , 1090 lb. Capacity 40-1/2 in x 48 in Utility Trailer. Amazing deals on this 1090Lb Capacity Utility Trailer at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices. www.harborfreight.com. One thing I learned is since the Bolt has separate tail/brake/turn signals you need to use a converter and can't get by with simply splicing into the harness …, The trailer coupler features a spring loaded collar and meets V5 & SAE J684 standards. Attached to your vehicle, this coupler enables you to tow up to 2000 lb. Max. load capacity of 2000 lb. SAE Class I; Couples with 1-7/8 in. diameter ball hitch; Fits 2 in. square tongue; Meets V5 & SAE J684 standards, The Trailer Jack Wheel Dock provides a firm, solid surface for most trailer jack wheels. Pre-drilled holes make it easy to mount the Wheel Dock on any surface. Prevents rolling and keeps trailer jack from sinking in soft ground; Durable high-impact construction is molded to fit most trailer jack wheels; Pre-drilled holes for permanent mounting, In this video, I briefly review a trailer tongue box from HF (Item No. 64795), and latest custom addition to my HF 1720 lb. capacity folding trailer: an eas..., 500 lb. Capacity Aluminum Cargo Carrier. Shop All HAUL-MASTER. Customer Videos. $10999. Compare to. ULTRA-TOW 28679 at. $ 169.99. Save $60. Haul an extra payload with this cargo carrier Read More., Find a variety of trailer & towing Accessories at Harbor Freight. Ideal for maintenance, repair or storage. , Shop by Department. Buy the HAUL-MASTER 2000 Lbs. Swing-Back Weld-On Trailer Jack (Item 42950) for $19.99, valid through January 28, 2021.Compare our price of $19.99 to Trailer Jack at $68.94 (model number: BD151443). Save 71% by shopping at Harbor Freight.This trailer jack is great for stabilizing and leveling travel trailers., 1-48 of 288 results for "boat trailer tongue extension" Results. Check each product page for other buying options. Price and other details may vary based on product size and color. ... CURT 25100 Straight Tongue Trailer Coupler for 3-Inch Channel, 2-In Hitch Ball, 5,000 lbs. 4.8 out of 5 stars. 488. 400+ bought in past month., trailer tongue. 2. Place the Tool Box on the trailer tongue (not supplied) with the wider part near the trailer. 3. From the Hardware Pack (6) select a “U” bolt and insert it through one of the rectangular support plates. Insert the legs of the “U” bolt through the holes in the bottom of the Tool Box to align with the supports on your ... , Harbor Freight buys their top quality tools from the same factories that supply our competitors. We cut out the middleman and pass the savings to you! My Account. ... 2-3/4 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box. 2-3/4 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box $ 149 99. Add to Cart Add to List. HAUL-MASTER. 2.31 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box., Haul-Master 2.31 CU ft. Tongue Box Review- Purchase or pass?Should you purchase the 2.31 CU Ft tongue box from Harbor Freight? How sturdy is it?Is it really ..., 109. Jun 4, 2012. #5. Re: trailer tongue extension. birdgod, folks are recommending solutions for trailers made from structural steel, as almost all boat trailers are. A Harbor Freight trailer is made from folded sheet metal, to achieve a certain price point and shipping weight. Doesn't make it a bad trailer, just not a 'real' boat trailer., This is a quick review/ install video of the Harbor Freight trailer tongue tool box by Haul Master., We have 1500+ Harbor Freight Stores across the USA. To help you find a Harbor Freight store near you, visit our Store Locator page. Harbor Freight Tools locations are open 7 days a week, Mondays through Saturdays from 8 am to 8 pm and on Sundays from 9 am to 6 pm. At Harbor Freight Tools, we offer many ways to save on quality tools. , HAUL-MASTER 12 in. Hitch Extender – Item 69882 / 98677. Compare our price of $23.99 to ULTRA-TOW at $47.99 (model number: 32824). Save 50% by shopping at Harbor Freight., How to install a trailer tongue box by harbor freight Harbor Freight Tongue..., The trailer coupler features a spring loaded collar and meets V5 & SAE J684 standards. Attached to your vehicle, this coupler enables you to tow up to 3500 lb. Class II, gross vehicle weight to 3500 lbs. SAE Class II; Couples with 2 in. diameter ball hitch; Fits square tongue; Meets V5 & SAE J684 standards , This super duty utility trailer is designed for carrying heavier loads. Add your own planking to create a heavy duty hauler. Trailer bed tilts all the way to the ground for easy loading and unloading; Heavy duty steel frame with baked enamel finish; Frame folds to fit 2 ft. x 5 ft. 3 in. of floor space; Three leaf spring suspension, KENWAY. Four-Way Trailer Wiring Connection Kit, 25 ft. Shop All KENWAY. $1499. Compare to. REESE TOWPOWER 7463611 at. $ 18.98. Save 21%. This 25 ft. color coded 14 gauge is the complete wiring harness needed to …, Jul 30, 2016 ... Harbor Freight Trailer Tongue Extension Modification Part 1 of 3 videos ... Boat Trailer Hawaiian Style Sliding Extended Tongue | EZ loader ..., The center frame member of the Calkins trailer is 8′ of 1/8″ wall, 3″ x 4″ rectangular box tube. To make the tongue extension, I purchased 10′ of 1/8″ wall, 2-1/2″ square box tube to telescope inside it. The only obstructions were the wiring that exited the frame in the center of one side, the top two bolts that connect the side ..., Feb 13, 2005 · STANDARD FIT. This receiver hitch extension bar has a 2-inch x 2-inch shank to fit any industry-standard 2-inch trailer hitch receiver ; SOLID STRENGTH. This 2-inch receiver hitch extension is constructed from high-strength steel to ensure reliable towing for the road ahead. It is rated for 3,500 lbs. gross trailer weight and 350 lbs. tongue weight , The trailer tongue box has a cam lock and key mechanism for security. The HAUL-MASTER 2.31 cu. ft. Steel Trailer Tongue Box (Item 61602 / 64795 / 66244) has a 4.5-star rating on HarborFreight.com . Save on Harbor Freight’s customer favorites with our May 2020 coupon book , valid through June 30, 2020., Painting. Construction. Hardware. Home & Security. New Tools. This hitch extender adds an extra 16 in. of length to your hitch for better turning clearance. This is ideal for trailers with boxes or propane tanks. The handy nonslip diamond tread step provides easy access to your truck bed or SUV roof., Shop: Standard Trailer Light Kit with 25' Wire Harness; Shop: LubriMatic Multi-Purpose Lithium Grease - 3 oz. Cartridges - 3 Pack; Search Results: trailer tongue extension; Q&A: Can Timbren Heavy-Duty Axle-Less Trailer Suspension Install on Harbor Freight Trailer; Q&A: Do Harbor Freight Trailers with 5 Bolt Pattern Use Standard 5 Bolt Pattern, Adapt your 1-1/4 in. receiver to accept cargo carriers or hitch mounts built for 2 in. receivers. The tongue capacity is rated at 350 lbs. for Class II hitches. The hitch adapter is powder coated over an electroplated layer for superior rust and corrosion resistance., To launch, simply back the trailer to the head of the ramp at a level point, aligned so that you will go straight back. Chock the trailer's wheels and uncouple it from your hitch, pull forward and slip the extension bar in place, pin it, and hitch the extended coupler to your vehicle and back it in. Ultimately this is a much more controlled ...